All UP Teams Research-Discussion

General board to discuss Upper Peninsula football.

Moderator: Moderator Group

All UP Teams Research-Discussion

Postby upfootball » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:42 am

Did a little more researching on the All UP teams recently. Got them all the way back to when they started now in 1938.

http://www.up-football.com/allup/allup.html

Only looking for 1943 at this point. Any help would be appreciated.

Now for my suggestion to the UPSSA. You watered it down way too much this year. Dream Team, Large School, Small School, 8 Man Dream Team, First team 8 man. Sorry that is insane. Its now easier to make All UP than it is All Conference. Please fix this for next year. Nobody wants it this watered down.

One Dream Team for all football please. I understand that is difficult to make for 8 man players. Its supposed to be. Its called the Dream team. Can't go on stats. You have to say this guy is so good its a no brainer or they probably don't belong. One First team 11 man. Quit the Large school, small school thing All UP team thing.... not enough schools now. Again All UP should be hard to make. One team for 8 man. Yes, that is plenty. The teams do not have to be compromised of only 11 players on each side of the ball for 11 man game and 8 players on each side of the ball for 8 man game. Different packages require different personal. So having extra ends and extra backs and things like that.... legit. Same on defense.

Teams of the Year trophy. Not well done either. The Barber Trophy is fine for now. Top AB team. Craig Trophy (which was at one time Class C Team of Year) should have been top Small School team. Mattson Trophy (which was at one time top Class D team) should be top 8 Man team. The UPSSA adjusted Mattson because there were only 3 Class D teams left playing 11 man football, but instead of sending it to where the rest of the Class D teams went... they gave it to Top D8 school and added another trophy for 8 man. Why water it down that much? You have a poll for three areas, yet give 4 trophies at the end of the year? Explain that.

I have further suggestions for the Trophies in 2018. The Mattson goes to 8 Man team of the year. The Barber Trophy goes to the winner of the GNC. The Craig Trophy goes to the best team outside of the GNC. Let's face it, St Ignace is on it's way to 8 man. Sault Ste Marie should never win the Barber Trophy by playing Class D schools. The WestPAC locked themselves away from the rest of the world with their scheduling decision. If you give the Barber Trophy to a team that doesn't want to face the GNC, you're asking for trouble and disrespecting the purpose of that trophy. If UP teams complain about not getting the Barber Trophy outside of the GNC and they are a Class AB team. I have an easy answer. Join the GNC for football. Its open to join. Not interested? Then shut up. All the teams in the WestPAC can play for the Craig Trophy. Don't like Class AB teams in that conference playing for the Craig Trophy? Then what are they doing in your conference? The Barber Trophy was voted on not just record. The scribes looked at records versus only UP teams and strength of schedule back in the day. Research it yourselves. They had it right from the beginning.

Lets look at the first ALL UP team and compare it to where we went this year with it, heck lets look at where it is just from 2014:

http://www.up-football.com/allup/1938.html

http://www.up-football.com/allup/2014.html

http://www.up-football.com/allup/2017.html

Barber Trophy:
http://www.up-football.com/history/barber.html

Craig Trophy:
http://www.up-football.com/history/bruce.html

Mattson Trophy
http://www.up-football.com/history/mattson.html

I know everyone wants a prize in this era, but that doesn't make it right. My 2 cents.
User avatar
upfootball
Founder
 
Posts: 10011
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:40 pm

Re: All UP Teams Research-Discussion

Postby Mr. NCAA » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:12 am

Pet peeve of mine is only one player per position on the field. So 11 man game can have 11 on offense, 11 on defense, and the two kickers. 8 man game can have 8 on offense, 8 on defense, and the two kickers. Back in the old days there were multiple sets as well and only honored on per my standard.
Mr. NCAA
Visiting Guru
 
Posts: 577
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:40 pm

Re: All UP Teams Research-Discussion

Postby scoopnscore » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:48 pm

I think I would agree with having 11 plus the kickers and so on. Offense would be 1 QB(1), 2 Running backs (3), 2 Wide Outs(5), 1 TE (6), 1 Center (7), 2 Guards (9), 2 Tackles (11). Defense I would go 2 DT (2), 2 DE (4), 1 ILB (5), 2 OLB (7), 2 Corners (9), 2 Safeties (11). Add in the Kicker, Punter, Returner. I understand kids move around, but the coaches can decide when they nominate for all conference where the kid plays the most. All-UP mainly starts with those all conference lists. 8 man you could go with 1 Center (1), 1 QB (2), 6 Receivers (8), j/k!
I haven't failed, I have just found 10,000 ways that won't work - Thomas Edison
User avatar
scoopnscore
All UP
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: The Yoop

Re: All UP Teams Research-Discussion

Postby upfootball » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:54 am

My question to those of you who follow this over the years is this.

What would you rather have?

Proposal 1 - The format the way it became this year - Dream Team 11 man, Dream team 8 man, Large school 11 man team, Small school 11 man team, 8 man team. That is 5 All UP teams for 13 Eight man schools and 26 Eleven man schools. 5 All UP teams for 39 schools? That is 125 slots for 39 schools.

Proposal 2 - This is my alternative. Dream Team (11 man + 8 man same team), 11 man All UP team, 8 Man All UP team. Proposing a change to offense and defensive personal. Proposing 13 offensive positions, 13 defensive positions and two special teams (kicker and punter). On offense (1) center, (2) guards, (2) tackles, (1) QB, (3) ends, (4) backs. Now ends and backs may be interchanged [ie 4 ends and 3 backs] and may be a combination of TE, WR, FB, RB. On defense (2) ends, (3) defensive tackles, (4) LB's and (4) DB's. For 8 man it would be different to accommodate the packages they run at that level. I would increase the team from 8 men on each side to 10 with extra backs and ends.

I personally would much rather proposal 2. Brings the amount of teams from 5 to 3. Much more reasonable for under 40 schools to pick from, basically you would have a true All UP Dream Team - was always meant to be one of those..... then an 11 man team and an 8 man team. Secondly you get a true offensive and defensive unit out there. Sometimes you run a spread with more ends. Sometimes you run tight with more backs. On defense you can use extra linebackers or extra defensive backs just like what actually happens in a game depending on situation. This also takes the total All UP positions from 125 to 78. Still a lot of positions but a far cry from the ridiculousness of 125 for less than 40 schools.
User avatar
upfootball
Founder
 
Posts: 10011
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:40 pm

Re: All UP Teams Research-Discussion

Postby Hambone » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:44 am

I would propose-

Dream Team- Best of the best
Large School All UP
Small School All UP, include players from 8 man schools

22 position players, a kicker, punter, and return specialist. The only other position players I'd consider would be adding a FB on offense and NT on defense. Also no gets named All UP for more than one position. If you are an Al UP guard, you can't be named All UP on defense.
User avatar
Hambone
Moderator
 
Posts: 3699
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2002 2:51 pm

Re: All UP Teams Research-Discussion

Postby upfootball » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:27 am

I think you can only get one position now and I agree with that. I am not a fan of the return specialist. Generally the good returners are the good backs or ends anyway. Not a fan of stats either. Getting 4 returns for TD's against teams who combined for 3 wins isn't quite the same as facing teams like Fond du Lac or Homestead. Besides.... we all know stat padding is real. Some coaches take the stars out of the game as soon as they know the other team is in trouble... as early as the 2nd quarter. Other coaches like to show no mercy and pound the living piss out of their opponent, leaving the starters in the game up 28 points in the final quarter.

A great measure of how good a player isn't stats. Its how well they play in the toughest games or the games they lost. That is the true measure of greatness. Anyone can be good when things go well. The special players shine when the chips are down.

FB would fall under RB. Not everyone uses a FB anymore. Its become a lost art. It is one of my favorite positions on the field too. Generally a selfless team player.
User avatar
upfootball
Founder
 
Posts: 10011
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:40 pm

Re: All UP Teams Research-Discussion

Postby scoopnscore » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:32 am

Not a fan of stats either. Getting 4 returns for TD's against teams who combined for 3 wins isn't quite the same as facing teams like Fond du Lac or Homestead. Besides.... we all know stat padding is real. Some coaches take the stars out of the game as soon as they know the other team is in trouble... as early as the 2nd quarter. Other coaches like to show no mercy and pound the living piss out of their opponent, leaving the starters in the game up 28 points in the final quarter.


I couldn't agree more with this. I feel like part of why they split out the 8 man teams is that the voters weren't sure how to handle the huge stat totals of the 8 man game against the 11 man game. I think they should have a better handle on that now. You are exactly correct that level of competition needs to be considered. Also I have seen many kids in the past get huge numbers because the team doesn't have enough kids to take them out. Some of these teams with 3-4 kids on the sidelines have no choice but to leave the starters in all game.
I haven't failed, I have just found 10,000 ways that won't work - Thomas Edison
User avatar
scoopnscore
All UP
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:44 pm
Location: The Yoop

Re: All UP Teams Research-Discussion

Postby upfootball » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:39 pm

scoopnscore wrote:I couldn't agree more with this. I feel like part of why they split out the 8 man teams is that the voters weren't sure how to handle the huge stat totals of the 8 man game against the 11 man game. I think they should have a better handle on that now. You are exactly correct that level of competition needs to be considered. Also I have seen many kids in the past get huge numbers because the team doesn't have enough kids to take them out. Some of these teams with 3-4 kids on the sidelines have no choice but to leave the starters in all game.

True to a point. I agree it makes it much more difficult on the coach to control it. That said, if the game gets completely out of hand. You start playing kids in different positions. There is a lot you can do to control it, the only question is at what point do you draw a line? Some coaches complain they still need to work on stuff. Not sure I buy that when the teams are so unevenly matched anything works. You're not really getting anything accomplished at that point IMO. Anyway I could go on all day with that stuff. The point is, stats are nice but they don't even tell half the story and most of the time are misleading.

I do not know the stats of anyone I watch on the field (I'm not keeping stats nor am I concerned with them watching a game), but I can tell you who the best players I have seen are in any given year and I know which ones have the potential to make it at the next level. Picking All UP teams is tough no doubt, but the best teams have most of the best players. The top stat guys are not necessarily on the best teams. That isn't rocket science. You just have to stand up and say it. This kid is a no brainer and no stat is going to prove or disprove it. You picking a team in the school yard? Which kid you want?
User avatar
upfootball
Founder
 
Posts: 10011
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:40 pm


Return to Upper Peninsula Board

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests